impure_tale

Then the matter of visitation should be handled.

It should be.

Aye, it should. I think, perhaps, the best and clearest way to go about this is to make our opinions most clear on the matter, I shall do so now, and then perhaps you should, and Judas and Iago can comment further from there. For I believe if we do otherwise, misconceptions may occur.

I have, to be honest, ceased to see the utility in preventing them, on any level. I believe that it has reached such a point where any potential positives from limiting them are outweighed by the negative effect. I believe such a punishment or act, or however we wish to phrase it, at least, from what I have seen from Judas, results in a continuing cycle of deterioration and severely does hinder my attempts to deal with, and help him, in numerous other areas. I do not think this kind of restriction works as a way of getting him to reconsider any behaviour of his. It is simply a method which I find ineffective.

That being said, I would wish to hear your position on the matter and, if you disagree, what maybe considered a positive effect of maintaining any restriction on them visiting each other, for I am willing to consider it, I simply do not see one at the minute. I shall leave the matter for the three of you to respond, and consider from there.

I have to say, Sexby, that until recently I was completely in agreement with you and would have been happy to move the matter forward from there. I hesitate now in the wake of my most recent conversation with Monsieur Iscariot because I see a fundamental problem with rewarding tantrums. Now I am more of the mind that unsupervised visitation will be contingent on the behavior of both Inmates. And when good conduct prevails, my arrangement with my Inmate is to remain that he must remain active on the Barge and inform me when such visits take place -- as well as continue his talks with me in private.

Edited 2010-05-12 18:35 (UTC)

I didn't throw a "tantrum." I don't see your logic in wanting to break him down so he feels like he's nothing, even striking him. Physical violence isn't a solution to an inmate who's angered you. I spoke with you in the same way you spoke to me. I see your condescending attitude as completely unnecessary.

And now I see you using our relationship as nothing but a toy than can be taken away when we act up and absolutely ridiculous. If you will abuse the connection we have with each other than I would rather we not have it than for it to be used against each other like you plan.

...if I did speak out of turn, in your ~~incorrect~~ opinion, it was because I had been separated from him for three weeks without even so much as an update as to when said separation would end. In trying to alert the wardens to the ~~injustice~~ issue, I hoped someone could potentially reason with you when my fuse was much to short to do so properly rather than just swat me down as an uppity inmate.

Edited 2010-05-12 18:39 (UTC)

Yes, I'm abusing the connection between the two of you. Clearly. It has nothing to do with the fact that your behavior of late, regarding me and in conversations with him, hasn't alerted me to the fact that you might be a danger to his progress.

I told you before to control your emotions, did I not? I do not like the state that my Inmate has been in anymore than you do, but bearing in mind that I have been here longer than you have and have had miles more experience regarding people in that state than you do, you must entertain the idea that I'm not completely in the dark on the matter.

A danger to his progress? How am I a danger to his progress? He came to my room last night and he spoke to me about Othello of his own free will. Has he done that with you yet?

I am trying, Marquis, but you make personal jabs at me and I'm supposed to just sit and let those pass me by? You barb me into a temper, if you have talked with anyone else here who knows me, I can be very reasonable. Sexby knows this, Martha knows this, but you're the only one who sees fit to taunt me and then call me childish when I get angry.

You might not be in the dark on how to graduate someone else, but I do think you are on how to graduate Iago.

I have spoken to you when you have been reasonable. I know it's not uncommon. But you choose to handle your problems poorly, and in a manner that sets than example that I would not have my Inmate follow. This concerns me because I have said to you in the past that in the state Iago has been in, you must control yourself.

As I said before, nothing has prevented you from coming to me, or to Sexby, and addressing the matter in person -- which is what you should have done, because the situation is delicate and does not need commentary from uninvolved persons.

Now, having read some of your public conversations with others on the matter, I am of the opinion that you may have misunderstood my intentions when the matter of visitation was first settled, and perhaps I should have realized some of the things I said might be taken another way than I intended.

And finally, on the matter of graduating anyone, I don't believe you qualify to make that distinction.

For one, I'm glad to hear that he spoke of Othello with you, but I'm also quite certain he probably would have liked to tell me about that himself, if at all. And that is one of the inherent problems, here -- I am perfectly agreeable to the notion that he has a confidant, but if he is not applying these things to change, and choosing to keep them tucked away and unaddressed, that's a danger to his progress -- it's one of the reasons why he's here, and you cannot enable that. Moreso, in times when Iago has gone against his nature and chosen to express himself, it has sometimes been a matter of violent whim, and part of undoing that is fostering new habits that will allow him to deal with what he needs to in a mature, healthy manner. That is why I think your behavior can be detrimental, and why I choose to voice my disapproval.

Gentlemen. Stop. Now. Both of you.

As this seems to be the main point of contention, let me offer a little mediation in the matter, for what I can see, you are both at fault and both have valid points.

Firstly, Judas, the Marquis does have a certain point that you need to not let your temper get the better of you, for it helps no matter. You are now making accusations of the Marquis which are unfair and you have no objective foundation to base them upon. I also think he has a genuine point about how these issues should not have been raised in public, and we could have easily had this conversation a week or so ago, if you had asked for all four of us to address it, instead of presenting it as a massive injustice to the general population. Your first reply, I thought, was fair and measured of your view of the situation. Your subsequent replies, you have lost your temper, please, take ten minutes, step away from the conversation, have a smoke, calm down a little. I also ask you to retract that final statement for it is an unfair judgement.

Secondly, I think, Marquis, Judas does have a point that if you talk to him in what I would consider, overly confrontational manner, all you will get is confrontation in return. I try and make sure that he is never under the impression that I am not listening, for when I do, he will listen in return and as he says, he can be reasonable. He is not beyond that. I am far more aware of his capabilities in discussing matters sensibly than you, and I believe he is, but you have to approach it in a certain way. I know he does have a temper, and does raise it far too quickly, and I am working on that, but I think your initial response to him here was overly confrontational. I also do not actually believe, in my opinion, he is bound to be detrimental to your inmate - I do not know Iago too well, but from what I have heard, admittedly from Judas, they do listen to each other and are reasonable with each other, in the main, every couple loses their temper at each other. And I think the more people Judas is capable of doing this with, the less likely he is to lose his temper in public in the future.

Again, gentlemen, please. Calm down and take a step back and reassess what has been said so far.

I came to you on multiple occasions, directly asking you to consider our separation. I also told you that I thought Iago would do well with some time outdoors, in the CES, when he expressed it to me. I have been trying to help him. I came to you before when he lied to another man ~~but I suppose that means nothing to you~~ and I have been trying to help him recover since we've been brought back. When he asks me to stop, I stop, despite when I feel like I have every right to defend him. When I felt you were ignoring me and my requests, I went to people who I thought would listen, not for commentary or sympathy.

Read some of my conversations with Iago, for I know you can, and yes while some of them have been "emotional," there are some where I'm simply trying to cheer him up when he feels he's lost all hope.

I rescind my opinion that you're ~~unworthy~~ unknowing of how to graduate him. You have a file full of information on the matter. But, I feel you need to recognize that I know him just as well, if not more so because of our time together. He came and spoke to me because he was upset about Jesus's interactions with me, came to admit that he likely would have reacted the same if Othello came and spoke with him. We had a reasonable discussion before bed about Othello and if you want me to I can ask him to speak with you on the matter, but you would need to be reasonable and request it of me, not be confrontational with me, as Sexby said. I understand you disapprove of me, you aren't the only one who does. There are many, many people who not only disapprove but would rather see me hanged or in Hell than here and having a chance at redemption.

When I have spoken to you in the journals on the issue of the separation, I have either told you that more time is needed, or I have told you that I am in discussions with your Warden, or will be, and at the time of your missive, that is exactly what we were doing. I was not ignoring you.

And...I know you came to me when you felt he was breaking my rules. But you have to remember that for you it has been over three years since that incident. I know it has been weeks, but in some ways the two of you are new people while in others you are still the same, and given Iago's current state, again I must err on the side of caution when I can.

I will not ask you to ask him to come to me on the matter. You do what you feel is right, but I would rather he choose to come to me. And you must not mark my wariness regarding your emotions as synonymous with the disapproval of others on the Barge. I care not for religious biases, and it has no bearing on why you are here. In the end it is not their decision.

And to address something your Warden has said, I am not concerned because I think you will intentionally harm him. You have overreacted to things in the past in argument with him, but that is common of almost any coupling. I would be shocked if you actually lashed out at him. That is not the issue. I simply would not have him do as you do. You are more passive -- he is not. He has killed people on this ship before, or tried.

I must point out a few things I believe that need to be said at this point. On the Marquis' first point - it is true, Judas, and I feel that I am at fault for not making you more aware of the situation, or perhaps, suggesting that we have a conversation between the four of us instead of having several two way conversations in which lines get crossed. Either way, I accept I should have been clearer on the matter, but equally, the Marquis is correct, you were not being ignored.

On his final point, I understand the point, I truly do, but I equally do not believe Judas would put Iago in a position where his attitude to things would drive Iago to do as he does. I think Judas does recognise that losing his temper is by no means a good or reasonable approach to things, and I think he would not wish Iago to react as he does. Correct me if I am wrong, Judas, but whilst you are clearly influential on each other, I also think they accept how the other is, and how they react to matters.

Thank you both for approaching it more systematically.

I would have preferred to be let known that there were indeed conversations going on where we couldn't see them instead of hoping, or whatever did happen, that we knew. I can only react to what I know or see, not things hidden away.

And he killed people in Masterworld, but a killer isn't always a killer. If he's treated as such then he'll assume he's only a killer. Yes, he has to face the consequences of his actions, I do as well but if you only treat us as common criminals and our opinions as unimportant, no matter how we present them then what are we supposed to expect besides hoping that some day we can become as complacent as some of the inmates here; that at some point we may be able to desensitize ourselves to the entire system. If I chose to sing about it, would it have made any difference? Or would that have been seen as just as emotional as anything else I said?

On the matter of being passive, you are similar to him in that you react first, such as when you struck him when we first returned, and then well after the fact try to make some argument for why it was right. Should we assume that you will always strike first and ask questions later? Would that be fair of us to judge upon you? If you think not, then don't assume that he will kill again. We do indeed have an influence on each other and, of course not for every occasion, know what the other will and won't do. He knew in Masterworld that I would never kill, even if our lives depended on it and as such, took that task upon himself when we went to war. But that doesn't mean he will continue to kill here, no matter what the circumstances.

Edited 2010-05-12 19:54 (UTC)

Stop. I did not mention the Master's world, in regards to killing. He did before. More than once. I have told you this, and I have told you that he has expressed to me, more than once, that he attacks on whim, without warning, and does not yet know how to control it or what causes it. The fact that I am aware of this, and that it is both my job to guard against it and find a way to undo it, does NOT mean that I regard the both of you as common criminals with no opinions in the matter. So cease addressing what was already an established problem as something purely caused by that place. It wasn't. It was only exacerbated there.

And you continue to return to the incident that took place after you were both brought back to the Barge -- if your behaviors must be measured against influences in that world that were beyond your control, as Sexby and I have had to do, then you cannot turn around an say that it is unthinkable that we might react to it adversely in turn. I permitted my emotions to get the better of me, and rightly, I was restrained, and I did not object to that happening, which was a key difference. Now kindly drop it.

I know he killed JD. He told me himself, I know he killed a woman here. I wasn't just referring to that place, I was also referring to here. The way you're expressing yourself now appears dismissive to me as if I should just accept everything you say. I still have that opinion, whether or not you agree with it, Marquis, and you can't simply wipe it away with a few words.

I am trying to make a point on the matter of emotions. You gave into yours, just as I have given into mine before but somehow I am the lesser man because of it. If you want to apply a standard, then apply it across the board, not just to yourself. I have reasons for acting on my emotions, just as you did; I am a man just as much as you.

I know you have that opinion, and I feel your opinion on the matter includes a refusal to accept that I still have to remain cautious for that and counsel him through it. He is not the same Iago now, but until some damage can be repaired I cannot ascertain whether those whims are gone from him entirely or if his current state, if and when rectified, might return him to older habits. You may disapprove of his actions and still love him, and that is the end of it. I, however, must still bring about results.

My point on the matter of emotions is that I was taken to task for my outburst, and rightly so, and that you, yourself, cannot expect not to see a response. I do not think we differ in that regard.

Judas, sir, calm yourself again, please. I do not think the Marquis was dismissive as you claim. I think he was actually making quite clear why he believes what he believes, and not expecting you to accept it but explaining himself. So, again, take a minute and consider this. It was not dismissive.

I do not see that he is being inconsistent, I think he understands as well as anyone that our emotions get the better of us at times, but his point, I believe, was that yours have consistently proved to do so, and usually in a public fashion which, as you have admitted to me yourself, has at least an element of attention seeking in it. The point I believe being made, or the point that should be being made, is that he is aware when his emotions have got the better of him - hence why he made a point of saying he was restrained and did not object, whereas you often present any objection to you letting your emotions get the better of you as an injustice.

At least, that is what I read of it, but I seriously ask you, once more, to step away and think for five minutes before writing again. Tis a simple task.

Sir.

[But indeed, there's another ten-minute gap and Judas wishes he could pace.]

What I am trying to say is that you stated above, Marquis, that my allowing my emotions to get the better of me was a reason why you believe me to be detrimental to Iago. But you just admitted yourself that you, too, allow yourself to be emotional. Doesn't this also mean that you could also be detrimental to Iago and that it isn't just me who could be negatively affecting him, in your opinion? I think it unjust and unfair to assume that I'm the only one who is detrimental because of my temper when you've shown similar outbursts, even if they aren't public. What I think unjust, though, is that because yours are out of the public eye, you can go on saying you aren't being detrimental to him and that I'm the only one causing him any harm here when you are guilty of the same things as I, but in a different forum.

I understand that it's your duty to bring him to graduation and I acknowledge this and that I do indeed have an intense temper, but if you want to only use what has happened between since we arrived back here and now, being without two functioning legs has made it considerably shorter and I feel unprotected and unsafe without the option of running should someone invade my room, as people have before in our home in Masterworld, which too was taken from us whether or not we deserved it in the first place. Iago is more than just the man I love, but a protector and guardian and without him at my side I feel even more insecure.

But you, Captain, I told that to you in confidence and in the thought that what I told you would remain private to you and me. Not to you, me, and whoever else you decided to tell.

Edited 2010-05-12 20:31 (UTC)

I have to differentiate who I am talking to in this conversation, Judas.

However, on the final point, you are correct. I should not have mentioned it, and I hold my hands up at having breached that. It was my mistake. I do apologise, I shall not breach that again.

I shall let the Marquis respond to the rest.

The fundamental difference between you and I, Monsieur Iscariot, is that, as your Warden has said, you are more consistently in this situation. I have lost control during extenuating circumstances, and I have been corrected. You, however, find yourself in this situation enough that I would personally be exhausted if it were me. And in my lifetime before coming here, I promise you, I was very similar at times, sometimes to greater extremes given my age. And I promise you that once I came here and learned to control it, I felt a good deal less miserable and more in control.

Edited 2010-05-12 20:52 (UTC)

But you haven't answered my question. So, I will repeat. Doesn't this also mean that you could also be detrimental to Iago and that it isn't just me who could be negatively affecting him, in your opinion? No matter how often, or not often it occurs? One event or encounter could affect someone just as greatly as a repeated one of a different variety.

Both of you saw how Jesus affected me. Whether or not He intended to help, His reaction to me, though once, had a greater effect than Sexby has, whether negative or positive. A repeated presence doesn't necessarily ensure a more lasting affect.

Edited 2010-05-12 20:57 (UTC)

Anytime that I have felt that my state could be harmful to Iago, I have made a point -- sometimes belatedly -- to remove myself from him and reflect. You will remember on your initial return that matters were handled more smoothly once we'd taken time away from one another.

Can you bring yourself to distance yourself from him if you feel that you might hinder his progress? Or have you become too dependent to allow it? And if you are so dependent, can you not acknowledge how this at least has the potential to be bad for the both of you?

Edited 2010-05-12 21:01 (UTC)

I have and did. For the week you requested of us. I answered every question and request but I felt that you made no effort to assure us that we would indeed see each other, even after that initial request for our separation was kept to.

There is where I appear to have been misunderstood. I did not, in the end, posit to you a week's restriction. That was the original deal, before Iago chose to openly go against the conditions. After that, and after time was taken for private discussion and meditation, I said that I would allow Iago to see you after his first day's service. I kept my word on that matter and saw to it personally that it happened. From there, I said that whatever I decided beyond that would be dependent upon how things went on after that.

And I thank you for allowing him to see me that night. But I read that 'dependent upon how things went' as a continued separation, hinging upon whether or not you felt we deserved to be with each other and only on your opinion, not if we were obedient or did as we were asked, which we did.

129

filter - just going to continue from one thread, if everyone will join in

Re: filter - Sounds good. Lemme track it.

filter - sounds good to me.

filter

Re: filter - Strikes not readable, he's trying to be civil.

Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Re: Filter - Ten minutes or so later, after indeed smoking. Again, strikes not readable.

Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Re: Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Filter

Re: Filter - I have to head off to class now.

Filter

Filter- assume he's been fuming the whole time..

Filter

Filter

Filter

Re: Filter

Re: Filter